to come back on-topic:

I can agree with a lot of what Goat said, but I think he's making an unfair comparison (apparently) comparing underground death metal with mainstream rap. I'm not very knowledgeable about rap, but lots of my friends are and they delve deep into the genre and I've heard some wonderful shit, which has made me think. Oh and the instrumentation isn't always that bad in hip-hop, even though it's secondary to the lyrics. I'm sure other people can provide you with examples of that.

Even then I've got to agree with some of the points Goat made about the questioning content and about how the public views said genres. Rap indeed seems to be more forcing a subjective opinion on you lots of times, whereas (death) metal opens up cases, which you normally wouldn't think about, throws them in your face and lets you somehow find your way out of that mess by contemplating how your thoughts towards these issues are. So I can see a point here, even though I must say I listened to a LOT more (death) metal in my life than to rap, so I wouldn't know and may be biased.

well but why do we even care? let's enjoy the music instead of overanalyzing it.

The Roots would be an example of that instrumentation thing. Death metal has NEVER made me think that much from a lyrical standpoint. A lot of the time, death metal bands seem to be singing about basically nothing.

EDIT: I should mention that I do like death metal. Nile is great, Cryptopsy too, etc. But seriously, a lot of the time DM bands and metal bands in general will seemingly sing about nothing.

Goat's post was talking about CC-type death metal, and if CC's lyrics invoke deep thoughts in anyone... That's just a little weird

Rap thinks it's enough to simply tell directly where the society's problems lie and put something remotely musical underneath and the right message will come accross. Well make me love you and call me a whore, it doesn't. What rap lacks is distance, it doesn't pose questions, rap doesn't make you think, it makes you nod, symbolically (you basically agree with the said, because what is said is not in any way problematised, "yo dog 'tis da trooth fo real") and literally (the music does basically make you nod).

This is too general a statement. THere are many socially conscious hip hop artists and many stupid hip hop artists. I daresay that the ratio is as good as if not better than the same ratio applied to metal, and definitely in favour of hip hop when narrowing to only death metal. Witness Talib Kweli:

Talib Kweli - "The Proud" 2002

...

I don't understand your comment. I was pointing out it's not enough to directly expose the problems of society, for example it's not enough to simply say "we know America's sense of safety is false," because that changes nothing. And you just put out another example of this direct approach. What Kweli's text is about is nothing new. It's just something I agree with. What I nod to. And that accounts for a false sense of being of top of the situation, when it actually alows it to perpetuate. That's why I believe socially conscious hip hop artists ARE stupid hip hop artists. They occupy a niche, a channel to vent out and provide for others the identification point, they draw together people who share the same sentiment, and the result is nothing really has to change within the society itself. All you have is people who are "aware." Well who isn't?

Death metal:

1. Why do they sing about what they sing? In what do they ground their choice?
2. Why do they sing the way they do? Don't they want to be understood?
3. Why is the music so aggressive? Do they understand it demands a lot from the listener to delve into it?
4. Why do I like it? What does that say about me?
And 5. Does it really say what the critics say it does? Is death metal really about what people who can't stand it say it is about?

The same can be said of hip hop. Answer 1 is straight forward.

I agree, I pointed that out myself: "To be fair, this reads black and white because I'm biased, roles can indeed switch. Rap that does it right exists and metal that fails ..."

Answer 2 is appropriate in that you yourself comment on the broken English employed by rappers which seemed to be to their detriment.

Haha, got me there. Sort of.

Answer three is especially relevant to a band like Public Enemy, who make aggressive sounding music and have constantly battled with the last two questions you pose above. They were and possibly still are percieved by the government as terrorists.

Check out "Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos" from 1988's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. Public Enemy use their stance as artists to create a politically/socially challenging fictional situation and explore it in much the same manner as a band like Slayer.

I'll take your word for it, because like I said, I REALLY don't like rap. It contains no surprises for me and after a while it makes me nervous, like a kind of Chinese water torture. There might lie an ethical challenge (to force myself to listen properly to rap must come from an ethical decision, because my pleasure principle is ALL against it) for me, but I'm not willing to take it yet. But I'm well aware it's a genre of its own and within that genre the modus operandi for quality is the good ol' Gausian curve.

3. because they really don't want music to take over the message (in their case it's not about the aggression of the music but the lack of its presence)
4. (if asked Why do you like it?) I really don't (if asked Why don't you like it?) because it's really not interesting at all
5. who cares really what the critics say, rap really misses the point by taking a really direct approach, period. Really.

About what's life all about:
Rapper: tits and money. (Meaning: tits and money.)
Metalhead: ending it. (Meaning: you'll have to figure it out for yourself because at the end life is about what you make of it.)

You should not allow preconcieved notions to misdirect your thoughts.

But ... it was my thoughts that concieved those notions.

Please listen to the following selections:

Noooooooooo! No more counterexamples! Counterexamples are shit. They are used to fight generalisations WITH ANOTHER GENERALISATION. I hate counterexamples, they always try to interfere with a good theory while completely ignoring the points of that theory.

Rap is simple music made by simple people for simple people. Metal is deep music made by deep people for deep people.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Now then, death metal lyrics proverbially deal with taboo, forbidden, unspoken, basically uncommon themes. The fact that the text is mediated uninteligibly is a structural necessity. The proof is the comical effect that is produced if one of the two factors is substituted with its opposite. Imagine a Celine Dion type of lyrics being performed death metal style. You'd have a laugh. And vice versa: imagine Cannibal Corpse lyrics performed lounge style.

Dude, I know a vocalist from a local death metal band and a buddy of his who go to local karaoke bars and belt out death vocals to Britney Spears songs until they get kicked off stage. Timeless.

Rap is simple music made by simple people for simple people. Metal is deep music made by deep people for deep people.

Let me rephrase, if I may:

Rap is mindless pseudo-music for complacent aimless people who DON'T WANT TO THINK. They just want to nod and gyrate and co-opt the feelings of arrogance and greed that emanates constantly from that so-called musical style. Rap is a malignant cancer that is slowly killing the music industry, which may be a good thing, depending on how you look at it. Of course, there are countless metal bands who also glorify arrogance and greed, but at least they can play their own instruments and most likely write their own songs as well. But, I don't care for those bands either, as I absolutely abhor arrogance in any form. Every rap song should be called "It's all about me because I'm so bloody awesome. Bitch."

Every rap song should be called "It's all about me because I'm so bloody awesome. Bitch."

You didn't bother reading any of the lyrics I posted did you?

Jesus, it amazes me how ignorent people are about hip hop. Think of all the good metal music you heard from word of mouth that wasn't played on the radio. There is alot of thoughtfull hip hop out there that does make you think, as well as just generally interesting lyrics & production also. I don't understand why people can't fathom that. Just because you heard 50 cent on the radio doesn't mean you know enough to generalise in such a way.

thats my 2cents anyway.

i think theres more to rap and r/b and all those genres
what the media is overfeeding us is definately only the tip of the iceberg
that said, i still dislike rap, my brother is heavily into it, and tried to get me into that, but i cant enjoy it
usually its way too heavilly reliant on lyrics, setting aside all the music for me

i dislike rap, but i wouldnt say all of it is crap, some of the stuff is pretty researched, but still not my cup of tea

^Thanks for being sensible


This thread makes me angry

if we all based our opinion of what metal on whats being played on mtv and the radio, we'd probly bitch and moan about it too
discussing what genre is better than another is meaningless, cause we're all biased, obviously, and we obviously dont take time to to look into the genres that dont interest us...

people are all in a rage about rap, because its getting tons of media attention right now
and iirc the last time metal got as much attention, well it wasnt so much interesting music, im talking about 80's hair metal

but now if you really still need to feel superior, you can go ahead and bash genres, but its not gonna prove much, in the end its just music, and as long as you can enjoy the music you like, why take time to bash what other people like?? your not gonna convince anyone to switch over to your taste or anything

i'm not bashing anything! it just seems like many people here have this misguided belief that all rap is the same, and it's not. i don't like generalizations and this thread is full of them. IT'S INFURIATING

[djskrimp]

People tend to only　delve as far as they are interested or entertained or "shocked". So be it...but to say that rap IS this one way is to completely disown what a lot of artists are doing in the rap and hip hop community. It`s just as unfair to say that as it is to say that metal is only about the devil and killing. Anyone who has ever listened to metal with an open mind can tell you that that is far from the truth. Well, same thing with rap. It`s easy to look at mainstream rap and say that it represents all variations of the genre, but that would be wrong. Besides, comparing rap with death metal is like comparing apples with oranges, because they have differing agendas...for the most part. Death metal, by and large, speaks of the evil in man, and what forces drive that evil. Rap, on the other hand, speaks of the problems of the street and neighborhoods. I suppose you can say that death metal deals with topics a little more abstractly and rap deals with topics more personally. But, as I said, these are broad generalizations, and either genre could certainly switch topics with just as much intelligence and insight as the other.

My personal opinion is that both are viable and vital genres of music, because they do tend to deal with weightier (is that a word?) topics, and do so adroitly. Besides, why slight one in favor of another? It`s like ice cream...you may not like chocolate or vanilla or whatever, but it still frickin` ice cream.

Or, I could just fuck off.

Every rap song should be called "It's all about me because I'm so bloody awesome. Bitch."

You are a genious.

I think that death/black metal is propably the stupidest music there is (after mainstream rap of course) because the stupid lyrics they have.
I know that's a huge generalisation but if you want compare every single death/black metal bands with rap, be my guest. BUT music is about MUSIC. So all rap and black metal bands suck.

Ugh.