Haha Goat I can understand where you're coming from. The way I look at it is if you download the leak you should do your part in not spreading it.

People yap about it because they want to discuss it. It's nice to have someone to talk to about it when it's one of your favorite artists.

I actually don't really see a point in waiting if you can manage to keep it to yourself.

For me it´s the point that i would like to discuss ZTO very much, but it´s not so much fun to join a discussion when the thread has already 15 pages and everything has been discussed weeks ago by those who downloaded the leak.

FWIW, and I know this is totally anecdotal and I probably don't represent the average internetz person...

I downloaded Synchestra. I listened to it. I loved it. I bought it when it came out (pre-ordered through HevyDevy). I bought a t-shirt, too. And, I bought The Hummer and DevLab.

So, no, it doesn't weigh on my conscience that I downloaded Synchestra.

If I like an album, I buy that shit. Of course, the main reason I do is because I need to re-rip it at a decent bitrate, but it's also because I like owning the CD and I want to give money to the artist. That's why I bought the t-shirt.

So, this is my suggestion to everybody. You don't have to buy multiple copies, but buy the album when it comes out and buy a shirt or something from Hevy Devy. Or, just paypal them some extra money.

I don't think that Devin doesn't like the music industry because of downloaders or something like that. I think it's because he likes making music and he loathes retarded interviews, press, and the pressure to sell more albums by executives. I worked for a short time in the entertainment industry and I can tell you, most executives are small-minded, typically lawyers and they don't know shit about creativity. So, if you walk up to them and go, "I wanna make an album about an alien who drinks coffee to bend time." They go, "Whaaaaa? Fuck that won't sell."

That's why he wrote "Fucker." I know that's obvious to everyone but I'm just saying.

Devin is a smart man and he's been making records long enough to know that if he continues making albums that we will keep buying them and he'll keep making a living off of it.

For godsake, the man went on vacation and an album fell out of his ass that sounds amazing. Devin is NOT quitting music anytime soon. He might as well quit breathing.

Or, i could just fuck off.

I'll just continue my ramble as everybody does. "Downloading now/buying later" is NOT the issue. Is NOT the point. It's not about redeeming oneself. It's not about tapping Dev on the shoulder and saying "Look, I'll just download this, ok, no no no, don't look at me this way, as I was saying, I'll just download this and enjoy it, because you are so great and I'm your absolute fan, and then when it officially comes out, I'll buy the CD and a T-shirt, so no harm is done, right?" That's weak, lame, ugly and patronising. In my mind it should go like this: you download the album and shut up about it. I don't need to know how is it nor is it any good or nothing. When it comes out, you buy it if you do, and you spread the word how you feel about the album. THEN you admit that you downloaded it weeks in advance and I'll go "oh you foxy you." That way even if you didn't buy the album after it was officially out, I won't know you are a dirty bastard, because that's for you to know and for me to not care about. But what we have here now, with everybody solely swearing that they will absolutely buy the album when it comes out, the need of declaring that raises my eyebrow. I'm radical with myself on this: either I will buy the album or I will say I will buy the album. And the more I say I will buy the album, the less chances are I will actually buy the album. So I'm begging you, stop saying you will buy the album because that makes me - and not just me - think you are all a bunch of lying bastards. (NOT directed at anyone in particular, I just write this to clear things up for myself, that's how I feel the issue should be approached)

To anyone who is absolutely dying to discuss, maybe you should do this: create "I downloaded the Ziltoid leak" thread. Then everybody who did that, posts a simple "I did it" or something so you know who you are and you go on MSN chat and discuss the hell out of it and the forums stay clean because we are waiting for Ziltoid who is I believe at this time somewhere in 2009/2008 span to arrive shortly.

[djskrimp]

I'll just continue my ramble as everybody does. "Downloading now/buying later" is NOT the issue. Is NOT the point. It's not about redeeming oneself. It's not about tapping Dev on the shoulder and saying "Look, I'll just download this, ok, no no no, don't look at me this way, as I was saying, I'll just download this and enjoy it, because you are so great and I'm your absolute fan, and then when it officially comes out, I'll buy the CD and a T-shirt, so no harm is done, right?" That's weak, lame, ugly and patronising. In my mind it should go like this: you download the album and shut up about it. I don't need to know how is it nor is it any good or nothing. When it comes out, you buy it if you do, and you spread the word how you feel about the album. THEN you admit that you downloaded it weeks in advance and I'll go "oh you foxy you." That way even if you didn't buy the album after it was officially out, I won't know you are a dirty bastard, because that's for you to know and for me to not care about. But what we have here now, with everybody solely swearing that they will absolutely buy the album when it comes out, the need of declaring that raises my eyebrow. I'm radical with myself on this: either I will buy the album or I will say I will buy the album. And the more I say I will buy the album, the less chances are I will actually buy the album. So I'm begging you, stop saying you will buy the album because that makes me - and not just me - think you are all a bunch of lying bastards. (NOT directed at anyone in particular, I just write this to clear things up for myself, that's how I feel the issue should be approached)

To anyone who is absolutely dying to discuss, maybe you should do this: create "I downloaded the Ziltoid leak" thread. Then everybody who did that, posts a simple "I did it" or something so you know who you are and you go on MSN chat and discuss the hell out of it and the forums stay clean because we are waiting for Ziltoid who is I believe at this time somewhere in 2009/2008 span to arrive shortly.

For a cretin, you sure are erudite.

To anyone who is absolutely dying to discuss, maybe you should do this: create "I downloaded the Ziltoid leak" thread. Then everybody who did that, posts a simple "I did it" or something so you know who you are and you go on MSN chat and discuss the hell out of it and the forums stay clean because we are waiting for Ziltoid who is I believe at this time somewhere in 2009/2008 span to arrive shortly.

You get a gold star.

Yeah. I take all your points. And I was just annoyed because I really want to download it but I can't because I reckon it's disrespectful to the artist. And I feel that whoever leaked it was a scummer and don't want to benefit from what a scummer did..

..and the Klepto thing was meant to be a bad example of how I'm immoral, but I'll only steal from multi-national corporations who won't notice the loss of stock when I get hungry and have not money. I wouldn't ever steal from an artist I admire as much as I do Dev.

Good point about 'Fucker', especially.

Download away, but I don't want to get involved, personally.

stealing to feed yourself doesn't really sound like being a kleptomaniac...

Yeah.. but I suppose I just felt hypocritical saying 'I steal sweets all the time, which makes me immoral' in a thread where I'm arguing that stealing music is immoral..

Leave me alone! I'm slower than most people!

Well, for the record, in case there's a record (is there a record somewhere?), I never said I downloaded Ziltoid, nor have I done anything but discuss the songs from the myspace page (which I have thoroughly enjoyed several times over!!!). I only said that I downloaded Synchestra. And I pre-ordered it from HevyDevy (as in gave them my money before they gave me the product) and I ordered a t-shirt, too. I think you understand what I'm saying. I don't think it's condescending or disrespectful to listen to an album before you buy it. You know, it used to be that there were actually some music stores where they would let you return an album if you didn't like it. It would be cool if you could still do that. Well, you can, in a way, if you download it first. Then, if you like it you buy it. I know not everyone is honest like that, but it has always been thus. How many of us duplicated tapes back in the day, or even records? I mean, I know the argument there is sound quality, but we all know that the sound quality on downloaded music isn't that great either.

I still think that musicians need to rethink the way they do business. Downloading won't go away. I have thought about it alot and I don't know how to fix the problem (and I do think it's a problem somehow). But, there must be some way to change the revenue streams so that musicians are not so dependent on people buying their music. I don't know. It just seems like that people would want to give money to artists they enjoy so that the artist would keep making music. I would. No, I do. I give lots of money to the artists that entertain me.

I have been around long enough to respect most people around here so, even if I did dload Ziltoid, I'd not say anything.

Not to add to the fire but I do think that NIN had the right idea when they offered the entire new album for streaming on their myspace the day it leaked on the internet.

A lot of bands are going that route now a days.

There's a difference between taking an album that NiN put out as a gift to the fans and taking an album that leaked a few months too soon.

Anyway NiN are loaded, Trent's a good enough guy to realise that and he likes to give .. a lot .. back to the fans. I put my name down for a free NiN DVD one time on their official site. I never got it due to depleted stocks cos I never really go on there so I was pretty late signing up.. but it's the thought that counts, eh?

Anyway. Stealing music from the internet months before it's out and then making Orly nearly see the surprise at the end of the album before she hears it is wrong and bad and .. wrong. Orly wouldn't even know there was a spoiler. Now she'll be expecting something because of the retards who like to boast about their love of an artist they started and stopped listening to at 'Alien', just because he's seemingly popular for this album. And though a lot of them are arguing they'll buy it when it gets out, most of them won't. Believe me. Who needs a CD cluttering up your room when you can neatly store your mp3 files on your computer.

Well, Devy asked us not to download it and I'm going to do like he wants.
Like I said in an earlier thread when everyone seemed to be trying to bring in arguments for downloading, It should be up to the artist....but not to many care what they really want. So many try to tell the artist how they aught to feel about the 'honour' of being a popular download but again not really caring what they really think. We are all superfans here and when we say we'll buy it when it comes out I believe it. But do I believe the 10.000 other guys who will deside in their infinite wisdom weather it's good enough to go to the bother of paying the tab?Not much really.

shit we can all just wait till its out yeah? 2 months we've been waiting for a while anyway. just hold tight and PM if you must

Yup, concentrate on the new Porcupine Tree or Dimmu Borgir album (or something) until Ziltoid arrives.