...having worked with Steve Via, who was also a big fan of layering...

Steve Via Rocks

the thing i am casually trying to point out is that there is no key number of layers.

it is just a matter of "taste" when you are trying to make the sound you want.

its like asking how many brush marks are in that painting?

i could see the point maybe if there were very few layers you could say this old blues recording is one layer, or, this song was recorded on just a 4 track and you could discuss the idea of overdubs.

Just like if you look at zen brush art you can see hey that painting is only 7 marks. But after awhile the number doesnt matter and it is what you are left with, is it good art or not.

it all gets mixed down to two layers Left and Right anyway yeah?

if you are really interested in how many layers were in the cubase file of a song, disregard, but it would be different for every song and could vary completely between different songs based on what the artist feels they need.

Well, PR, see, the thing is, it's VERY clear to most of us that there are far more "brush strokes" in a Devin Townsend recording than most other recordings out there. And, if we were only actually trying to quantify the number of brush strokes in a picture, then you would be right. But, I understood, as did most everyone else, that what was actually being discussed was the general method of Devin's production. To continue your painting analogy, we want to know about the process for painting the picture. I don't think anyone here is so stupid as to be asking, "On Christine, exactly how many guitar tracks are used in the chorus?" In that case, it would be as if we wanted to know how many brush strokes there were in the Mona Lisa. Or, maybe if we asked how many times Devin strummed the strings of his guitar, then we'd be discussing minuatae that was completely silly.

I don't know sh*t about recording and record production, in general. So, knowing more about the recording of these albums, for which Devin is quite reknowned for, is interesting to me. I've learned a lot about the subject already from these boards and would be happy to learn more.

For future reference, here's what I do when I don't care what people are talking about in a thread... I don't click on it. That's right, I ignore it. For example, I've had it up to my eyeballs with the threads ranking the albums. I think those are retarded. So, I just don't read them. And, if I *do* happen to read them, I don't post in them. I leave them alone. Now, that's just how I do it. You might continue your method of belittling people who ask questions and post in the threads and see how that works for you. I'm only trying to offer my experience.

i thought the question about track layering mite be about something technical like how to mix layers together tho

Nope. I was just curious about exactly what kind of layering went into Devy's wall of sound. I thought someone here might know. Hmm. Does the bonus disc on any of the albums help?

the making of alien i watched on youtube was quite interesting pal

I remember Devin saying there were at times 80-track guitars on parts of Terria.

I can tell you right now that I'm pretty sure the '100+ guitar tracks!" thing is either a joke or a myth.

I kind of agree. If true, I think most of those tracks were incredibly silent then. I have achieved quite a full sound with three guitar tracks and a bass guitar. Much depends on the tracks one is working with from the start I think. And then change volume, panning, EQ, and effects according to what fits with the basic tracks and musical style.

Hi all

New here.

I own a recording studio and have done quite a few recordings with dense layering.

From what I can gather from assorted Devy interveiws etc. he and the engineer(s?) that worked on Terria are huge fans of Def Leppards Hysteria album and specifically the vocal fx.

Many of the chorus vocal parts on the hysteria album were layered/overdubbed by singing them up to 40 or more times on top of each other.
Much of the dtb chorus stuff has a VERY similar effect and I strongly suspect that he has done this.

Also the vocal chorus parts are made "sparkly" by the use of processors like BBE s that add top end harmonics(additional ghost-like notes) to the sound( I must add that this is in no way cheating because if the performance is crap,the enhancers make it more obvious)

Another marked difference in devs production is the hefty use of top quality reverb units(this effect is usually all but absent in most modern metal recordings resulting in a much drier present sound)

The reverb gives the dtb stuff the spacious futuristic type of effect
and he often puts it on the rhythm gtrs as well.

As far as layering the guitars go the riffy parts are normally only overdubbed(same part played on top of itself) at most four times cause even a tight player will still result in a looser sound if too many overdubs are done

There are also layers of many "incedental" sound beds(talking chirps buzzes and the like) which adds to the overall effect.

As far as drums go this is 99% only one layer (no doubling of the entire drum performance is done) is recorded,there are always exceptions but mostly never,same goes for bass guitar.

If you take a song like 7th Wave,after the spoken part,the lone riff comes in,sounds at most like 2 guitars but more likely 1 but heavily reverbed to make it sound like its in a cavern.

Then theres the first smash of band(no beat yet),that single guitar hit sounds overdubbed at LEAST 4(could be many more) times plus with reverb and ethereal random keyboard notes thrown in start to take it far away from a "normal" metal sound.

At the end of the song is the ahhh ahhh ahh vocal bit which is most certainly hugely overdubbed as far as thevocals go.

Also present on much of the dtb stuff are keyboard pads(a swirly sound playing long sustaining chords)

So basically the layering is mostly in the vocal parts and to a lesser degree the guitars,but also with the aforementioned assorted sound fx keyboards reverb etc. make up the production,plus wicked mastering

Most important of all is the presence of Devin's ENORMOUS talent as a vocalist/composer/producer/engineer/guitarist and songwriter,as well as a top notch band complete the picture.(if you aint got the talent no gadgets and trickery in the world will help) plus a LOT of effort and continuos hard work.

For my money it doesnt get anybetter than the DTB/DT stuff(OM in particular) and devin has created musical milestone after musical milestone and I certainly hope he will continue to do so.

Sorry about the long reply but I hope this helps

Thanks for reading

NIGEL :)

Wow, thanks for that rely man

Hi all

New here.

I own a recording studio and have done quite a few recordings with dense layering.

From what I can gather from assorted Devy interveiws etc. he and the engineer(s?) that worked on Terria are huge fans of Def Leppards Hysteria album and specifically the vocal fx.

Many of the chorus vocal parts on the hysteria album were layered/overdubbed by singing them up to 40 or more times on top of each other.
Much of the dtb chorus stuff has a VERY similar effect and I strongly suspect that he has done this.

Also the vocal chorus parts are made "sparkly" by the use of processors like BBE s that add top end harmonics(additional ghost-like notes) to the sound( I must add that this is in no way cheating because if the performance is crap,the enhancers make it more obvious)

Another marked difference in devs production is the hefty use of top quality reverb units(this effect is usually all but absent in most modern metal recordings resulting in a much drier present sound)

The reverb gives the dtb stuff the spacious futuristic type of effect
and he often puts it on the rhythm gtrs as well.

As far as layering the guitars go the riffy parts are normally only overdubbed(same part played on top of itself) at most four times cause even a tight player will still result in a looser sound if too many overdubs are done

There are also layers of many "incedental" sound beds(talking chirps buzzes and the like) which adds to the overall effect.

As far as drums go this is 99% only one layer (no doubling of the entire drum performance is done) is recorded,there are always exceptions but mostly never,same goes for bass guitar.

If you take a song like 7th Wave,after the spoken part,the lone riff comes in,sounds at most like 2 guitars but more likely 1 but heavily reverbed to make it sound like its in a cavern.

Then theres the first smash of band(no beat yet),that single guitar hit sounds overdubbed at LEAST 4(could be many more) times plus with reverb and ethereal random keyboard notes thrown in start to take it far away from a "normal" metal sound.

At the end of the song is the ahhh ahhh ahh vocal bit which is most certainly hugely overdubbed as far as thevocals go.

Also present on much of the dtb stuff are keyboard pads(a swirly sound playing long sustaining chords)

So basically the layering is mostly in the vocal parts and to a lesser degree the guitars,but also with the aforementioned assorted sound fx keyboards reverb etc. make up the production,plus wicked mastering

Most important of all is the presence of Devin's ENORMOUS talent as a vocalist/composer/producer/engineer/guitarist and songwriter,as well as a top notch band complete the picture.(if you aint got the talent no gadgets and trickery in the world will help) plus a LOT of effort and continuos hard work.

For my money it doesnt get anybetter than the DTB/DT stuff(OM in particular) and devin has created musical milestone after musical milestone and I certainly hope he will continue to do so.

Sorry about the long reply but I hope this helps

Thanks for reading

NIGEL

Cheers Nigel that was really interesting.

Makes sense, thanks Nigel!

IM new here as well ...I am an ameteur recording person....and in reading this topic I think NIGEL hit the nail pretty hard on its head...and I think JOSIAH TOBIN said it well also ,

.....as far as my knowledge goes with the whole tracking question ....100+ tracks @ 3 minutes would be an awfull lot of memory/ram power ""computing muscle" to run such a setup

would it not?

It would, but it's still possible. Especially if you mix down every 10 or so tracks to reduce the number you have, but that limits you as far as tweaking goes... Not by much though. I still doubt that that many tracks are regularly recorded even with someone like Dev, but I suppose it is possible. I remember watching a video where Arjen of Ayreon was talking about Devin's vocals on 'Loser,' he apparently received 26 vocal tracks with instructions to use all of them and to pan them hard left and hard right. Not quite up in the hundreds, but still pretty impressive.

Some programs allow to freeze the effects on tracks anyway so it isn't really a big problem. Mixing down now and then, as mentioned above, also helps of course.

And not everyone does all of the mixing in the box. Some work on a mixing board and with external effects before sending a stereo track to the hard drive for example. Or send tracks to which they've applied external effects already to the pc/mac.

As far as SYL goes, Alien had 4 rythm guitars, 2 on one side by Devin and 2 on the other by Jed.
The new black had just 2, one on each side by Dev and Jed.
The feather album sounds like it is 1 on each side too, but each done by Jed so it sounds a little tighter.
As for City, god knows