...

[Octillus]

I know this one guy who is a Jehovas witness. He called me yesterday because in a conversation we had a couple of months ago I upset him cause I tried to convince him evolution is at this point pretty much a fact. He talked about Noah's ark and all that stuff and it was actually kind of adorable to say the least.

It occured to me in that phonecall that the poor guy is incredibly confused right now and is propably having doubts about his religion. He was sobbing as we talked. I tried to be as unoffending as possible but still I had to defend my beliefs. It would be relatively easy to convert him into an atheist if i wanted. At this point I've pretty much decided what i'm going to do, how and why.



What would you do?

As long as his faith was only of issue to him and not forcefully oppressing you into following the same doctrine (even if he was spreading the gospel at you before, not by force) this is not something you should trifle with. People need to come to their own conclusions in life as long as they're not harming anyone else.

...

[Octillus]

As long as his faith was only of issue to him and not forcefully oppressing you into following the same doctrine (even if he was spreading the gospel at you before, not by force) this is not something you should trifle with. People need to come to their own conclusions in life as long as they're not harming anyone else.

Denying proven facts based utterly on your belief system is in my oh so humble opinion inadvertently harming society to some degree.

Oh and about what i'm going to do? I deliberately chose not to tell you guys

And this makes you any better than the people whose beliefs you believe subvert your ideology how?


I have a bit of a stake in this because, I'm an atheist leaning agnostic (as in, there's probably no god but I don't care either way) but most importantly I'm culturally Jewish. I was raised in a Jewish household, and thus I have familial/cultural connections to my Jewish background. I came to my conclusions on God about a decade ago, but I still came about it on my own. Who are you to decide what person does and doesn't believe? How are you so together and with it? Even if there's scientific proof, that's only one piece of the actual puzzle.

...

I'm an atheist. It's not a big deal, nor a way of life, just a "belief" (based on the evidence as I see it). I'm totally fine with people having religion--it doesn't suit me, but if it helps others and doesn't hurt anyone, they can have it. I would let the kid do what he wants, depending on his mental state. There's no point in barraging someone with contradictions inherent in their worldview just to be "right." It doesn't help either of you. If his religion is causing him grief, problems, etc., then it may be helpful to offer condolences that are outside of his ethos, but otherwise, what does it matter? It's actually a positive thing to see the world differently from someone else--there are things to learn from everyone you meet.

I make this post specifically to say that plenty of the atheists I know find many, many faults in religion (not that I don't see quite a few of them as valid), but some tend to go to extremes that make them just as militant and irritating as evangelicals. Both my roommates are, loosely put, excessively belligerent. I hate for people to fall into the trap of thinking they're "right" and thus becoming everything they've turned from. And I think that people will be the way they are with or without religion. Religion is a tool to be used for various purposes--for some, it's healing, comfort, or moral guidance, and for others, it's power, manipulation, or maybe even a means to wealth.

To me, it seems nonsensical that one would deny evolution in favor of (what I see as transparent) myths. But I'm not everyone. "To each his own," says the magic dude in that one book...

I make this post specifically to say that plenty of the atheists I know find many, many faults in religion (not that I don't see quite a few of them as valid), but some tend to go to extremes that make them just as militant and irritating as evangelicals.

This is exactly why I tend to stray from these arguments. A militant atheist is just as bad as a militant evangelical. Either way someone is trying to force their beliefs down your throat for their own personal gain. I knew a seriously militant atheist once and any time anyone would say anything pertaining to religion he would just go off, huge arguments ensued.

Think for yourself, come to your own conclusions and do research. That's all I have to say.

...

[swervedriver]

Just because there's proof for evolution doesn't mean that's proof against the existence of a god. Your friend may be interpreting what's in the bible too literal, thus finding all these conflicts. Nowadays I see a lot of christians interpreting the story of creation in 6 days in a sense that time scales in the bible shouldn't be taken literally. I'm sure you've heard of this interpretation where the various creation days are tied to the big bang & evolution theory.

I guess a looser interpretation of what's in the bible would help your friend: the stories don't have to be taken literally, but their meaning and what they're teaching are still just as valid.

On a side note, I'd put myself in the agnostic camp... and if there is a higher power I doubt it's of the overseeing regulatory kind as described in the bible.

...

[EphelDuath666]

I'm atheist myself but let preachers do the preaching. There's absolutely nothing wrong about discussing the topic and making your point though. Just as long as you don't force it onto anyone else because then you're like the people that you're against which would make you a hypocrite as well. I see it that way with most things in my life. I'm vegetarian but don't force my view onto anyone. People make their decisions, I make mine. I myself discovered for myself that atheism and vegetarianism are the right things for me and did not need anyone to tell me what I'm doing right or wrong. And others should be able to make those decisions for themselves as well.

Just because there's proof for evolution doesn't mean that's proof against the existence of a god. Your friend may be interpreting what's in the bible too literal, thus finding all these conflicts. Nowadays I see a lot of christians interpreting the story of creation in 6 days in a sense that time scales in the bible shouldn't be taken literally. I'm sure you've heard of this interpretation where the various creation days are tied to the big bang & evolution theory.

I guess a looser interpretation of what's in the bible would help your friend: the stories don't have to be taken literally, but their meaning and what they're teaching are still just as valid.

On a side note, I'd put myself in the agnostic camp... and if there is a higher power I doubt it's of the overseeing regulatory kind as described in the bible.

Aand here we go. One of the things I said to him was "I see no reason why religion and evolution can't co-exist". So i'd let him keep his faith but help him out from fundamentalism. That shit is dangerous.

I agree with this.

I have a problem, however, with people talking about atheism as a whole new 'religion' that someone can be 'converted' to. Leave him to it, have deep conversations about philosophy and theology as mates, but don't go preaching to him. I ignore all these hardcore atheists (for example, Richard fucking Dawkins) who hammer their "There is no God, you losers!" ideas as hard as any fundamental Christian.

*awaits flaming - I really shouldn't post on this forum when I'm deprived of sleep*

Are atheist allowed to believe in Karma, Do unto others as you'd have done unto thyself? Or are they like a God unto themselves? I don't get it. Atheism to me is the most offensive belief structure, likened to Luciferianism.

Are atheist allowed to believe in Karma, Do unto others as you'd have done unto thyself? Or are they like a God unto themselves? I don't get it. Atheism to me is the most offensive belief structure, likened to Luciferianism.

Atheists are allowed to believe in Karma, obey the golden rule, or choose to wholeheartedly embrace being a prick. It's not a religion, and is hardly a real backbone for a structure of beliefs, in and of itself. The only "tenet" of atheism is that there is insufficient evidence to suggest that any form of the supernatural, any higher power, any god has any interplay with the world as we experience it, let alone even exists. There's nothing offensive about the beliefs, really--there are sometimes quite offensive things about the people who choose to embrace it, however. But in that way it's just like every other religion/belief structure/ideology. Its followers are a mix of people with different morals, different outlooks, different minds.

Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

This is the most amusing thread I've seen in awhile. Thank you.