HEVYDEVY FORUMS

Okay, so for the most part, I think electric vehicles are stupid. There are plenty of arguments against them, once you cut past all the eco-babble that the media sees fit to waste so much time bitching about. Regardless, I thought this looked pretty cool.

A clean, efficient BMW. No, really.

Holy mother. Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. That's really cool looking!

Reminds me a lot of this, BMW vs Prias fuel economy... (starts at about 3:35)

[youtube]JmxUsGiGp3w[/youtube]

soundsofentropy wrote:I hate the Prius, even though I respect Toyota (to some extent) for their quality. It's just a miserable attempt to solve what they see as a problem. It makes me think of the people who complain about emissions from gas-powered cars and say we should buy electric ones. Where does the electricity come from? From the wall, right? Wrong. It's from coal (in most of this country, anyway).

Ok, but electricity in Prius engine didn't come from coal, unless I'm missing something and Prius is steam engined vehicle now (I know fuck all about cars, but I thought Prius is a hybrid car, where electricity is produced by generator powered by the internal combustion engine, isn't it? Well personally I think the idea is pretty smart - ze Germans used it extensively during the war, but their vehicles launched torpedoes :>)

soundsofentropy wrote:I'll be honest. I don't really care too much about the environment, partly out of selfish American egoism, but partly because the earth has been here for how long now? Four and a half billion years? Humans are a drop in the bucket. This planet has survived more than all of humanity can fathom. And we're going to fuck it up? Get a grip. The only reasonable fear we ought to have from all this climate change business is for ourselves. We'll die out way before our environment, and it won't be the least bit emotional to see us go. Anyway, I'm pretty far off the mark.

Sure, the planet doesn't care about us and won't even notice our extinction. That's the quality of our _own_ life that can be fucked by shitting in our own nest, metaphorically speaking. Caring about the environment is rather selfish thing - caring about our own future, however pompus it sounds. I'm not that misantrophic too be glad I'm going to live in giant dumpster.

BrunoN wrote:

soundsofentropy wrote:I hate the Prius, even though I respect Toyota (to some extent) for their quality. It's just a miserable attempt to solve what they see as a problem. It makes me think of the people who complain about emissions from gas-powered cars and say we should buy electric ones. Where does the electricity come from? From the wall, right? Wrong. It's from coal (in most of this country, anyway).

Ok, but electricity in Prius engine didn't come from coal, unless I'm missing something and Prius is steam engined vehicle now (I know fuck all about cars, but I thought Prius is a hybrid car, where electricity is produced by generator powered by the internal combustion engine, isn't it? Well personally I think the idea is pretty smart - ze Germans used it extensively during the war, but their vehicles launched torpedoes :>)

The way the Prius engine is made is actually very environmentally unfriendly. The point I made about coal, though, doesn't pertain to hybrids like the Prius. It pertains to electric cars; it's just that the sentiment is the same. People applaud these cars that have low emissions because they're helping the environment (and actually it's an issue of status--people think they look good when they're doing good), but what often totally escapes these people is that there's more to a car than emissions. It has to be built. The parts have to be manufactured and assembled, and that often times means tons of pollution. The reason the Prius is bad isn't because it's nifty. It's because it doesn't solve the problem--it still pollutes a hefty amount in its manufacture, and as a car, it's a failure. Driving a Prius on a highway? Absolutely terrifying.

My problem with hybrids is that the engineering behind them is weak. That's not to say that it's not clever, but early in the design stages a mark was missed. They say, "the problem is pollution from emissions, so let's cut down on those" instead "maybe we can get rid of them." There are methods of clean energy, and certainly one can be at least as creative as the inventor(s) of the internal combustion engine in devising new engines. I hate to sound like I'm plugging Honda (they do plenty of shit wrong as well--they all do in my eyes, since I'm such a callow, critical spectator), but look at the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCX Clarity). No emissions whatsoever, and a manufacture that's at least less 'harmful to the environment' than average vehicle production to boot. The only problem is, well...it drives like a Prius ( ). I wouldn't be surprised if more companies jumped on the H-fuel cell vehicle in a couple years.

BrunoN wrote:

soundsofentropy wrote:I'll be honest. I don't really care too much about the environment, partly out of selfish American egoism, but partly because the earth has been here for how long now? Four and a half billion years? Humans are a drop in the bucket. This planet has survived more than all of humanity can fathom. And we're going to fuck it up? Get a grip. The only reasonable fear we ought to have from all this climate change business is for ourselves. We'll die out way before our environment, and it won't be the least bit emotional to see us go. Anyway, I'm pretty far off the mark.

Sure, the planet doesn't care about us and won't even notice our extinction. That's the quality of our _own_ life that can be fucked by shitting in our own nest, metaphorically speaking. Caring about the environment is rather selfish thing - caring about our own future, however pompus it sounds. I'm not that misantrophic too be glad I'm going to live in giant dumpster.

So, my stance here changes depending on my mood. As I'm sure it does with everyone else. I do care about my future, and my hereto nonexistent kids' futures, but I'm tired of the politicization of this issue. We've got to "save the planet." No. Absolutely not. We've got to preserve ourselves. But preserve isn't even the right word. We shouldn't strive to keep things the way they were (or are); we should try to adapt, just like every other living on the planet. That's why I think the Prius is a stupid idea--it preserves the status quo, and tries to slowly add on a little bit of a "new" idea (please, the hybrid idea has been around since 1974). I don't see it as a crime against ourselves or nature to use our environment for our own gain as a species. Whether or not it's fucking us in the ass is still difficult to tell, at least from my perspective, so I don't know exactly what to think. I'm not going to change what kind of bags I get at the grocery store or any other trivial nonsense because plastics are inherently evil (read: I'm fairly dependent on oil, and I don't see a big reason to change that quite yet)--but, on the other hand, I don't particularly enjoy smog or garbage, and I don't go trampling around suburbia on my way from mall to mall in my Hummer. Eventually, we'll run out of oil. It's good to think of these things in advance. What I'm saying (absolutely terribly) is that I'd prefer we make one sudden switch from gas-powered cars to hydrogen-powered cars instead of thirty needless other transitions.

I'm sorry that I always go off the deep end and spit a slew of nonsense about--I have a clear tendency to think I know things. Don't worry, I don't.

Ok I admit I couldn't be bothered to google after FCX - great bit of info with that hydrogen technology, though it's still only on experiments stage.

soundsofentropy wrote:The way the Prius engine is made is actually very environmentally unfriendly. The point I made about coal, though, doesn't pertain to hybrids like the Prius. It pertains to electric cars; it's just that the sentiment is the same. People applaud these cars that have low emissions because they're helping the environment (and actually it's an issue of status--people think they look good when they're doing good), but what often totally escapes these people is that there's more to a car than emissions. It has to be built. The parts have to be manufactured and assembled, and that often times means tons of pollution. The reason the Prius is bad isn't because it's nifty. It's because it doesn't solve the problem--it still pollutes a hefty amount in its manufacture, and as a car, it's a failure. Driving a Prius on a highway? Absolutely terrifying.

Yeah, but I understood the discussion covers hybrid cars, not a wall-charged ones, which indeed are kinda weird. BTW, do you think production of new Honda pollutes the environment less? No matter what you do, putting together 1500kg of metals, plastics, chemistry and electronics complete with big fuck off batteries won't be anything "natural".

soundsofentropy wrote:My problem with hybrids is that the engineering behind them is weak. That's not to say that it's not clever, but early in the design stages a mark was missed. They say, "the problem is pollution from emissions, so let's cut down on those" instead "maybe we can get rid of them." There are methods of clean energy, and certainly one can be at least as creative as the inventor(s) of the internal combustion engine in devising new engines. I hate to sound like I'm plugging Honda (they do plenty of shit wrong as well--they all do in my eyes, since I'm such a callow, critical spectator), but look at the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCX Clarity). No emissions whatsoever, and a manufacture that's at least less 'harmful to the environment' than average vehicle production to boot. The only problem is, well...it drives like a Prius ( ). I wouldn't be surprised if more companies jumped on the H-fuel cell vehicle in a couple years.

Ok, you're right, hydrogen technology looks great and is obviously spiffier than ol' gas hybrid. Now look at the dates - FCX Clarity marketed as a first car of a kind has been launched in 2008 and according to wikipedia, well, no one drives them, there's whopping 200 cars to be produced within 3 years and basically no place to fuel them up (this one's weird, water's everywhere ). It's apparently very young technology (I mean _practical_ usage of it, we all know the concept is old) which surely required ton of research and lots of epic fights with the odds to execute, while gas hybrids, as a reasonable compromise between normal car and sucky wall-wart car were around for years. You've gotta give them some time to roll it out

soundsofentropy wrote:

BrunoN wrote:Sure, the planet doesn't care about us and won't even notice our extinction. That's the quality of our _own_ life that can be fucked by shitting in our own nest, metaphorically speaking. Caring about the environment is rather selfish thing - caring about our own future, however pompus it sounds. I'm not that misantrophic too be glad I'm going to live in giant dumpster.

So, my stance here changes depending on my mood. As I'm sure it does with everyone else. I do care about my future, and my hereto nonexistent kids' futures, but I'm tired of the politicization of this issue. We've got to "save the planet." No. Absolutely not. We've got to preserve ourselves. But preserve isn't even the right word. We shouldn't strive to keep things the way they were (or are); we should try to adapt, just like every other living on the planet. That's why I think the Prius is a stupid idea--it preserves the status quo, and tries to slowly add on a little bit of a "new" idea (please, the hybrid idea has been around since 1974). I don't see it as a crime against ourselves or nature to use our environment for our own gain as a species. Whether or not it's fucking us in the ass is still difficult to tell, at least from my perspective, so I don't know exactly what to think. I'm not going to change what kind of bags I get at the grocery store or any other trivial nonsense because plastics are inherently evil (read: I'm fairly dependent on oil, and I don't see a big reason to change that quite yet)--but, on the other hand, I don't particularly enjoy smog or garbage, and I don't go trampling around suburbia on my way from mall to mall in my Hummer. Eventually, we'll run out of oil. It's good to think of these things in advance. What I'm saying (absolutely terribly) is that I'd prefer we make one sudden switch from gas-powered cars to hydrogen-powered cars instead of thirty needless other transitions.

Yeah, everything is down to semantics basically, "save the planet" = "keep the place to carry your own ass bearable". Gotta agree, I'd like to see sudden switch from old crap technology to the much better one as well - but as you see, world has annoying tendence to progress a tad slowly (where's my dinner in a pill and a jetpack goddamnit)

And I have a spiffy cloth bag for groceries - hundreds of plastic bags floating everywhere rape my sense of aesthetics :>

soundsofentropy wrote:I'm sorry that I always go off the deep end and spit a slew of nonsense about--I have a clear tendency to think I know things. Don't worry, I don't.

No problem with healty bit of well mannered discussion. Now excuse me, I'm off to another forum to call some people cunts.

BrunoN wrote:(where's my dinner in a pill

been around for years

I believe some tl;dr's are in place.


Yes, tl;dr is just plain awesome.

Biert wrote:I believe some tl;dr's are in place.

No kidding.

BrunoN wrote:Ok I admit I couldn't be bothered to google after FCX - great bit of info with that hydrogen technology, though it's still only on experiments stage.

Well, it's not ready, but I wasn't under the impression we weren't only talking about the present, which doesn't actually exist. We're talking about progress, right? That's what it's all about? The future! Actually, there are flying (magnetically levitated) cars designed...

BrunoN wrote:

soundsofentropy wrote:The way the Prius engine is made is actually very environmentally unfriendly. The point I made about coal, though, doesn't pertain to hybrids like the Prius. It pertains to electric cars; it's just that the sentiment is the same. People applaud these cars that have low emissions because they're helping the environment (and actually it's an issue of status--people think they look good when they're doing good), but what often totally escapes these people is that there's more to a car than emissions. It has to be built. The parts have to be manufactured and assembled, and that often times means tons of pollution. The reason the Prius is bad isn't because it's nifty. It's because it doesn't solve the problem--it still pollutes a hefty amount in its manufacture, and as a car, it's a failure. Driving a Prius on a highway? Absolutely terrifying.

Yeah, but I understood the discussion covers hybrid cars, not a wall-charged ones, which indeed are kinda weird. BTW, do you think production of new Honda pollutes the environment less? No matter what you do, putting together 1500kg of metals, plastics, chemistry and electronics complete with big fuck off batteries won't be anything "natural".

Well, I just said it reminded me of those sorts of eco-maniacs. It was just a tangent in passing. It's all relative, anyway--production of any sort of vehicle will pollute a whole bunch, which is why if you're really environmentally conscious, you'd probably be buying used cars. Cuts down on production pollution. Regardless, coal is used in all stationary manufacture because the return is better than that obtained via petroleum, not to mention that it's a hell of a lot cheaper considering the demand for petrol as vehicular fuel. Anyway, people seem to have the idea that Priuses have a much less detrimental effect on the environment because they emit less. But seriously, look it up--the manufacture of a Prius is more harmful than the typical manufacture of comparable, petrol-only car, primarily due to its batteries and other atypical components.

BrunoN wrote:

soundsofentropy wrote:My problem with hybrids is that the engineering behind them is weak. That's not to say that it's not clever, but early in the design stages a mark was missed. They say, "the problem is pollution from emissions, so let's cut down on those" instead "maybe we can get rid of them." There are methods of clean energy, and certainly one can be at least as creative as the inventor(s) of the internal combustion engine in devising new engines. I hate to sound like I'm plugging Honda (they do plenty of shit wrong as well--they all do in my eyes, since I'm such a callow, critical spectator), but look at the hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCX Clarity). No emissions whatsoever, and a manufacture that's at least less 'harmful to the environment' than average vehicle production to boot. The only problem is, well...it drives like a Prius ( ). I wouldn't be surprised if more companies jumped on the H-fuel cell vehicle in a couple years.

Ok, you're right, hydrogen technology looks great and is obviously spiffier than ol' gas hybrid. Now look at the dates - FCX Clarity marketed as a first car of a kind has been launched in 2008 and according to wikipedia, well, no one drives them, there's whopping 200 cars to be produced within 3 years and basically no place to fuel them up (this one's weird, water's everywhere ). It's apparently very young technology (I mean _practical_ usage of it, we all know the concept is old) which surely required ton of research and lots of epic fights with the odds to execute, while gas hybrids, as a reasonable compromise between normal car and sucky wall-wart car were around for years. You've gotta give them some time to roll it out

No one drives them because there's not a market for them yet. They're lease-only, so there are literally no private owners. They're only available in California, where there are fueling stations. Water is everywhere, but they don't run on water, they run on hydrogen (which is in even more places). The issue is that they run on liquid hydrogen, which is a little difficult to produce. It's really young technology, and I don't expect it to be implemented any time soon, honestly. I just really like the idea, and so I feel the need to bring it up ( ). My point in all this is really just that I don't want to have to sacrifice my nice, normal car because people feel the need to take baby steps to the future rather than just waiting until we're ready to jump the fuck in. I'm just the odd one out, I guess.

Basically, this whole discussion is moot. The environment will be polluted a hefty bit no matter what we buy, and no matter how we drive it. Maybe I'm just justifying eco-damaging behavior in defense of fun. Who knows? I'm fine with other people driving hybrids and savior-of-the-world vehicles (just as long as there's a passing lane), but I don't think I'll ever give up the good old-fashioned fun of a 5- or 6-speed MT gas-drinker.

BrunoN wrote:

soundsofentropy wrote:

BrunoN wrote:Sure, the planet doesn't care about us and won't even notice our extinction. That's the quality of our _own_ life that can be fucked by shitting in our own nest, metaphorically speaking. Caring about the environment is rather selfish thing - caring about our own future, however pompus it sounds. I'm not that misantrophic too be glad I'm going to live in giant dumpster.

So, my stance here changes depending on my mood. As I'm sure it does with everyone else. I do care about my future, and my hereto nonexistent kids' futures, but I'm tired of the politicization of this issue. We've got to "save the planet." No. Absolutely not. We've got to preserve ourselves. But preserve isn't even the right word. We shouldn't strive to keep things the way they were (or are); we should try to adapt, just like every other living on the planet. That's why I think the Prius is a stupid idea--it preserves the status quo, and tries to slowly add on a little bit of a "new" idea (please, the hybrid idea has been around since 1974). I don't see it as a crime against ourselves or nature to use our environment for our own gain as a species. Whether or not it's fucking us in the ass is still difficult to tell, at least from my perspective, so I don't know exactly what to think. I'm not going to change what kind of bags I get at the grocery store or any other trivial nonsense because plastics are inherently evil (read: I'm fairly dependent on oil, and I don't see a big reason to change that quite yet)--but, on the other hand, I don't particularly enjoy smog or garbage, and I don't go trampling around suburbia on my way from mall to mall in my Hummer. Eventually, we'll run out of oil. It's good to think of these things in advance. What I'm saying (absolutely terribly) is that I'd prefer we make one sudden switch from gas-powered cars to hydrogen-powered cars instead of thirty needless other transitions.

Yeah, everything is down to semantics basically, "save the planet" = "keep the place to carry your own ass bearable". Gotta agree, I'd like to see sudden switch from old crap technology to the much better one as well - but as you see, world has annoying tendence to progress a tad slowly (where's my dinner in a pill and a jetpack goddamnit)

And I have a spiffy cloth bag for groceries - hundreds of plastic bags floating everywhere rape my sense of aesthetics :>

I've always been too lazy or too broke to pick some of those up, though I'm betting I'd like them more than the 14,000 plastic bags in my sink cabinet.

soundsofentropy wrote:I'm sorry that I always go off the deep end and spit a slew of nonsense about--I have a clear tendency to think I know things. Don't worry, I don't.

No problem with healty bit of well mannered discussion. Now excuse me, I'm off to another forum to call some people cunts.[/quote]

Give 'em what for.

...

Steph I love you.

Thank you. I've been straying away from the "Just Plain Awesome" thread because it's been loaded with tl;dr about cars.

Well this thread was taken waaaaaaay out of context...

I think the main problem is that, basically, these cars that have been put out there are useless. The focus is just way to honed in on the "OMG we've got an alternative to petrol!" aspect, and then the rest is just sort of flung on. They shouldn't be releasing them until they're perfected and rounded like regular cars. Releasing them with that unfinished feeling is only damaging the cause that the stupid things are fighting for. Even just by sitting in a bloody Prius you immediately feel depressed and have thoughts that there is utterly no future for the electric car at all. Whereas what they should have done is gotten it to the point where you sit in and go "Wow! This is a really great car! AND the engine is a great new development!"

I mean, these ideas will instantly be the fucking dogs bollocks for some people because they care so much about the state of nature and all that jazz, and I know there are hydrogen filling stations and stuff in California (and maybe other places? Not sure on that one), which is pretty cool, but still only a tiny hurdle jumped. Only 49 states and god knows how many more countries to go! And with the huge boom for cars currently happening in Asia it isn't gonna make life for these concepts any easier. I've got hope for these new ideas to come to huge profit and global use in the far flung future, but I'll be damned if it happens before 2100 at least. Unless they get their asses in motion and develop one, with everything done absolutely textbook perfect.

As for the environmental side. Being honest about it, I don't really care an iota. I think if I did care I'd just spend all my time feeling pissed off because pretty much everyone around me doesn't care.

Biert wrote:I believe some tl;dr's are in place.


Yes, tl;dr is just plain awesome.

I am glad I opened this thread just for this post. Hilarious

I've only ever driven three cars in my life, a Ford Focus, my dad's E-Class, and a 12 year old Land Rover Defender 90.

I must say, the D90 was the most sexiest thing I've ever had the pleasure of driving (moreso than the Merc), thus induced my desire to get a Land Rover. The moment I started looking at Freelanders on Autotrader in uni I've been metaphorically pelted with eggs over my choice in transport. "You live in London, you don't even need a car" doesn't cut the mustard when you need to transport 50 kilos of plaster from the other end of the city on a bus. I generally require their van-like boots, and will probably be faced with the need of driving loads around the country if my job requires it, so a teeny runaround might fall apart Also I am partial to the odd bit of green laning...

I must sound incredibly eco-unfriendly