Talk about whatever you want to here, but stay correct
#128568 by Goat
Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:30 am
I posted this on SYL boards and since there's cool peeps here that don't visit there I thought I'd launch this here too.

I was watching HBB yesterday and figured out why fans of (a certain type - I'm thinking Cannibal Corpse style - of) death metal hate (certain type - I'm thinking socially engaged - of) rap. And why they do so rightfully.
First, what connects the two styles artistically is the similarity between vocal output – in both cases it's rhythmically narrated text with little or no melody.
Now then, death metal lyrics proverbially deal with taboo, forbidden, unspoken, basically uncommon themes. The fact that the text is mediated uninteligibly is a structural necessity. The proof is the comical effect that is produced if one of the two factors is substituted with its opposite. Imagine a Celine Dion type of lyrics being performed death metal style. You'd have a laugh. And vice versa: imagine Cannibal Corpse lyrics performed lounge style. You can have a laugh again here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc-V3NYckOI
The fourth variation, common themes mediated listener friendly style, is covered by rap. And what is wrong with this fourth variation that we all think is so obnoxious and unnecesary? It's the lack of distance, the naivety of the package. Rap thinks it's enough to simply tell directly where the society's problems lie and put something remotely musical underneath and the right message will come accross. Well make me love you and call me a whore, it doesn't. What rap lacks is distance, it doesn't pose questions, rap doesn't make you think, it makes you nod, symbolically (you basically agree with the said, because what is said is not in any way problematised, "yo dog 'tis da trooth fo real") and literally (the music does basically make you nod). And know this: if you nod when someone's exposing society's problems, the politics will always find a way to make you nod when they set to implement new problems into society, they know how to do it.
Death metal on the other hand works with the right formula: distance to everything. *to the politician* »You want my wellbeing? Fuck you, what's behind it, I want to know the whole story!« It's the only way to stay engaged. When someone screams or growls uninteligibly about dissembovelment of a innocent little child, that raises some relevant questions:

1. Why do they sing about what they sing? In what do they ground their choice?
2. Why do they sing the way they do? Don't they want to be understood?
3. Why is the music so aggressive? Do they understand it demands a lot from the listener to delve into it?
4. Why do I like it? What does that say about me?
And 5. Does it really say what the critics say it does? Is death metal really about what people who can't stand it say it is about?

None of this questions has an easy of the bat answer! They make you think. And that's not what the critics do:
1. because they (death metal protagonists) 're sick
2. because they're crazy
3. because they're psycho
4. because you're all off the above too
5. damn right it does.

And how does rap do on these five questions? Well, I for one don't have a problem shooting them of the bat:
1. because that's what they really strongly believe in
2. because they really focus on the lyrical message
3. because they really don't want music to take over the message (in their case it's not about the aggression of the music but the lack of its presence)
4. (if asked Why do you like it?) I really don't (if asked Why don't you like it?) because it's really not interesting at all
5. who cares really what the critics say, rap really misses the point by taking a really direct approach, period. Really.

Do you feel the difference between both of the bat sets of answers? More comparisons:

About what's life all about:
Rapper: tits and money. (Meaning: tits and money.)
Metalhead: ending it. (Meaning: you'll have to figure it out for yourself because at the end life is about what you make of it.)

About poverty and unnecesary deaths in underdeveloped countries:
Rapper: that is unbearable, that's why I donate a lot of money. (Meaning: yeah, shit happens, I'll give away a small portion of my wealth to keep my conscience clean, I alone surely can't save the whole world, but I still want my insanely bizzare share of the profits.)
Metalhead: fuck yeah, my ideal playground! (Meaning: what are you actually asking me? Is there like a myriad of different answers or what? But if I acknowledge that one right answer publicly like my rapping buddy just did, it means I come to terms with it, which means I pay my dues and can continue living my sinful life. I have a problem with that. So die, little kiddies, and you bitch fuck off.)

To be fair, this reads black and white because I'm biased, roles can indeed switch. Rap that does it right exists and metal that fails ... well no, actually metal can't fail, haha, it can get pathetic or funny, but by its form it's always an eye opener – it teaches distance. Metal:rap=1:0.

#128579 by TheBolg
Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:20 am
Biased indeed, but you've got a point there.

Rappers are busy trying to answer questions that start with "what", "who", "where" and "when" and forcing their personal opinions on other people. Metal concentrates on the mother of all questions: "why?" and lets people make their own conclusions about things.

Rap is simple music made by simple people for simple people. Metal is deep music made by deep people for deep people.

Metalheads concentrate on opening their eyes and their mind while rappers concentrate on opening their big mouths.

Rap is just kindergarten poetry with cursing and a boring beat.

I'll join the biased club too.
#128580 by Greg Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:46 am
Goat wrote:I postedRap thinks it's enough to simply tell directly where the society's problems lie and put something remotely musical underneath and the right message will come accross. Well make me love you and call me a whore, it doesn't. What rap lacks is distance, it doesn't pose questions, rap doesn't make you think, it makes you nod, symbolically (you basically agree with the said, because what is said is not in any way problematised, "yo dog 'tis da trooth fo real") and literally (the music does basically make you nod).


This is too general a statement. THere are many socially conscious hip hop artists and many stupid hip hop artists. I daresay that the ratio is as good as if not better than the same ratio applied to metal, and definitely in favour of hip hop when narrowing to only death metal. Witness Talib Kweli:

Talib Kweli - "The Proud" 2002

One two, one two yo
Aight.. put it down yo
June 21, 2001
Timothy McVeigh is executed
And the country breathe a sigh of relief
Goodness prevails over evil, it seems
Somehow when he's gone, we feel safer
Little do we know

Today the paper say Timothy McVeigh's in hell
So everything's okay and all must be well
I remember Oklahoma when they put out the blaze
And put Islamic terrorist bombing on the front page
It's like saying only gays get AIDS; propaganda!
Like saying the problem's over when they locked that man up
Wrong! It's just the beginning, the first inning
Battle for America's soul, the devil's winning
The President is Bush, the Vice President's a Dick
So a whole lot of fuckin is what we gon' get
They don't wanna raise the babies so the election is fixed
That's why we don't be fuckin with politics
They bet on that, parents fought and got wet for that
Hosed down, bit by dogs, and got blacks into house arrest for that
It's all good except for that - we still poor
Money, power and respect is what we kill for, for real

August 4, 2001
A drunken police officer mows down an entire family in Brooklyn
The judge lets him go with no bail
It reminds us, of just how worthless our lives are to the justice system
I struggle, to explain the situation to my son, it's hard

Niggaz with knowledge is more dangerous than than niggaz with guns
They make the guns easy to get and try to keep niggaz dumb
Target the gangs and graffiti with the Prop 21
I already know the deal but what the fuck do I tell my son?
I want him livin right, livin good, respect the rules
He's five years old and he still thinkin cops is cool
How do I break the news that when he gets some size
He'll be percieved as a threat or see the fear in they eyes
It's in they job description to terminate the threat
So 41 shots to the body is what he can expect
The precedent is set, don't matter if he follow the law
I know I'll give my son pride and make him swallow it all (damn!)
Fuck the pigs! I think the pigs killed Big and 'Pac too
If they didn't they know who did, they got to!
Who they serve and protect, nigga not you
Cops shot off of ten G's but they got glocks too
Let you protect yourself, or better yet respect yourself
Straight into the hospital is where you gotta check yourself
They be gettin tips from snitches and rival crews
Doin them favors so they workin for the drug dealers too
Just business enforcers with hate in they holsters
Shoot you in the back, won't face you like a soldier
Kurt Loder asked me what I say to a dead cop's wife
"Cops kill my people everyday, that's life"

September 11, 2001
Terrorists attack the Pentagon and the World Trade Center
Kills thousand and permanently scars America's false sense of security
We see the best examples of humanity in the face of the worst
As fire fighters, police officers, rescue workers
and volunteers of all sorts, fight to save lives
The world will never be the same again

My heart go out to everybody at Ground Zero
Red, black, yellow, white and brown heroes
It's more complicated than black and white
To give your own life is the greatest sacrifice
But it's hard for me to walk down the block
Seeing rats and roaches, crack viles and 40 ounce posters
People broken down from years of oppression
Become patriots when they way of life is threatened
It's a hard conversation to have
We lost kids, moms and dads, people ready to fight for the flag
Damn, when did shit get this bad?
America kill the innocent too, the cycle of violence is sad
Damn! Welcome to the world, we here
We've been at, war for years but it's much more clear (yeah)
We got to face what lies ahead
Fight for our truth and freedom and, ride for the dead

Goat wrote:Death metal:

1. Why do they sing about what they sing? In what do they ground their choice?
2. Why do they sing the way they do? Don't they want to be understood?
3. Why is the music so aggressive? Do they understand it demands a lot from the listener to delve into it?
4. Why do I like it? What does that say about me?
And 5. Does it really say what the critics say it does? Is death metal really about what people who can't stand it say it is about?


The same can be said of hip hop. Answer 1 is straight forward. Answer 2 is appropriate in that you yourself comment on the broken English employed by rappers which seemed to be to their detriment. Answer three is especially relevant to a band like Public Enemy, who make aggressive sounding music and have comstantly battled with the last two questions you pose above. They were and possibly still are percieved by the government as terrorists.

Check out "Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos" from 1988's It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back. Public Enemy use their stance as artists to create a politically/socially challenging fictional situation and explore it in much the same manner as a band like Slayer.

PUBLIC ENEMY - "Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos" 1988


I got a letter from the government
The other day
I opened and read it
It said they were suckers
They wanted me for their army or whatever
Picture me given' a damn - I said never
Here is a land that never gave a damn
About a brother like me and myself
Because they never did
I wasn't wit' it, but just that very minute...
It occured to me
The suckers had authority
Cold sweatin' as I dwell in my cell
How long has it been?
They got me sittin' in the state pen
I gotta get out - but that thought was thought before
I contemplated a plan on the cell floor
I'm not a fugitive on the run
But a brother like me begun - to be another one
Public enemy servin' time - they drew the line y'all
To criticize me some crime - never the less
They could not understand that I'm a Black man
And I could never be a veteran
On the strength, the situation's unreal
I got a raw deal, so I'm goin' for the steel

They got me rottin' in the time that I'm servin'
Tellin' you what happened the same time they're throwin'
4 of us packed in a cell like slaves - oh well
The same motherfucker got us livin' is his hell
You have to realize - that its a form of slavery
Organized under a swarm of devils
Straight up - word'em up on the level
The reasons are several, most of them federal
Here is my plan anyway and I say
I got gusto, but only some I can trust - yo
Some do a bid from 1 to 10
And I never did, and plus I never been
I'm on a tier where no tears should ever fall
Cell block and locked - I never clock it y'all
'Cause time and time again time
They got me servin' to those and to them
I'm not a citizen
But ever when I catch a C-O
Sleepin' on the job - my plan is on go-ahead
On the strength, I'ma tell you the deal
I got nothin' to lose
'Cause I'm goin' for the steel

You know I caught a C-O
Fallin' asleep on death row
I grabbed his gun - then he did what I said so
And everyman's got served
Along with the time they served
Decency was deserved
To understand my demands
I gave a warnin' - I wanted the governor, y'all
And plus the warden to know
That I was innocent -
Because I'm militant
Posing a threat, you bet it's fuckin' up the government
My plan said I had to get out and break north
Just like with Oliver's neck
I had to get off - my boys had the feds in check
They couldn't do nuthin'
We had a force to instigate a prison riot
This is what it takes for peace
So I just took the piece
Black for Black inside time to cut the leash
Freedom to get out - to the ghetto - no sell out
6 C-Os we got we ought to put their head out
But I'll give 'em a chance, cause I'm civilized
As for the rest of the world, they can't realize
A cell is hell - I'm a rebel so I rebel
Between bars, got me thinkin' like an animal
Got a woman C-O to call me a copter
She tried to get away, and I popped her
Twice, right
Now who wanna get nice?
I had 6 C-Os, now it's 5 to go
And I'm serious - call me delirious
But I'm still a captive
I gotta rap this
Time to break as time grows intense
I got the steel in my right hand
Now I'm lookin' for the fence

I ventured into the courtyard
Followed by 52 brothers
Bruised, battered, and scarred but hard
Goin' out with a bang
Ready to bang out
But power from the sky
And from the tower shots rang out
A high number of dose - yes
And some came close
Figure I trigger my steel
Stand and hold my post
This is what I mean - an anti-nigger machine
If I come out alive and then they won't - come clean
And then I threw up my steel bullets - flew up
Blew up, who shot...
What, who, the bazooka was who
And to my rescue, it was the S1Ws
Secured my getaway, so I just gotaway
The joint broke, from the black smoke
Then they saw it was rougher thatn the average bluffer
'Cause the steel was black, the attitude exact
Now the chase is on tellin' you to c'mon
53 brothers on the run, and we are gone

Goat wrote:3. because they really don't want music to take over the message (in their case it's not about the aggression of the music but the lack of its presence)
4. (if asked Why do you like it?) I really don't (if asked Why don't you like it?) because it's really not interesting at all
5. who cares really what the critics say, rap really misses the point by taking a really direct approach, period. Really.

About what's life all about:
Rapper: tits and money. (Meaning: tits and money.)
Metalhead: ending it. (Meaning: you'll have to figure it out for yourself because at the end life is about what you make of it.)


You should not allow preconcieved notions to misdirect your thoughts. Please listen to the following selections:

Public Enemy - It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back
The Roots - Things Fall Apart
Mos Def - The New Danger
Common - Electric Circus
Talib Kweli - Quality
Cage - Hell's Kitchen
M.I.A. - Arular
DJ Shadow - The Outsider
J Dilla - The Shining
Wu Tang Clan - 36 Chambers
Mr Lif - Mo' Mega
Blackalicious - The Craft

#128600 by fullgore
Mon Aug 21, 2006 11:58 am
OH MY GOD are you saying the new DJ Shadow has leaked!?

#128603 by fullgore
Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:16 pm
waaaaaaa what happened DJ shadow? this album is crap :(

#128607 by Greg Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:54 pm
fullgore wrote:waaaaaaa what happened DJ shadow? this album is crap :(


I think that three songs from it are the worst he has ever done but the rest is fucking wonderful. I am very impessed, and I heard some of it live before hearing the recorded versions and I can tell you that both the studio and live versions are special in their own way.

He does "Seeing Things" and "Erase You" pretty faithfully but the rest of it that he played he mixed up quite a bit... Added the riff from Pantera's "10s" in one of the new ones when he did it live.

#128619 by fullgore
Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:07 pm
im not gonna lie, i prejudged it based on that horrendous single. it's still downloading. please tell me the rest of the album is better!

And as for your recommendations, I would have said Black Star by Mos Def instead of the one you have there :)

#128624 by Greg Reason
Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:50 pm
fullgore wrote:And as for your recommendations, I would have said Black Star by Mos Def instead of the one you have there :)


Everyone loves Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star but both artists have released far better solo albums, as I listed instead.

#128634 by sj_2150
Tue Aug 22, 2006 6:00 am
listen to busta rhymes - i love my chick. thats reason enough why death metal wins

#128654 by fullgore
Tue Aug 22, 2006 2:36 pm
Greg Reason wrote:
fullgore wrote:And as for your recommendations, I would have said Black Star by Mos Def instead of the one you have there :)


Everyone loves Mos Def and Talib Kweli are Black Star but both artists have released far better solo albums, as I listed instead.
Eh, to each his own.

Anywho, this DJ Shadow album isn't bad. I like the bluesy and more experimental tracks. The hyphy stuff just really gets on my nerves though. And on that note, the track placement isn't very good. Most of the annoying hyphy stuff is near the start of the album and because of that a lot of people probably won't give this album the chance that it deserves.

He still hasn't topped Endtroducing though, if you ask me.

#128657 by psychotic
Tue Aug 22, 2006 3:36 pm
Interesting, but you generalized rap way too much with that. There's a lot of rap outside of what is in the mainstream today and a lot of stuff that actually does what you say that rap lacks.

#128660 by Greg Reason
Tue Aug 22, 2006 10:01 pm
fullgore wrote:He still hasn't topped Endtroducing though, if you ask me.


Indeed he hasn't.... Brilliant record.

#128664 by fullgore
Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:57 am
This is good, though. Everything from Seeing Thangs on is amazing.

Baby ridin all around the world, seen so many faces
But I'm always lookin for love in all the wrong places!
*sings*

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