ah, therein lies the point. An insult does not make a an ad hominem attack. It would only be ad hominem if the insult were being used as the basis to disprove the argument.

Quite apart from which, stating that Dan Brown sucks as an author is not an attack on his personality - it is an appraisal (and an accurate one) of his abilities. "Dan Brown is an asshole. His books suck" would be a personal attack and an insult in the first bit and an accurate appraisal of his work in the second. "Dan Brown is an asshole so his books suck" would be an ad hominem attack. "Dan Brown is an asshole so his books suck - therefore Freemasonry is rubbish" would have been an ad hominem attack in the discussion.

If you want further clarification, have a read of this:
http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

I didn't mean Island in the first place I actually meant MSM hacks attacking him to hijack the debate of the facts around the things he so poorly alludes to in his books. Perhaps I should clarify myself more succinctly next time, I can see why this was misinterpreted. I'll edit my post slightly to reflect that.

@Island, underlying doesn't have to mean deep, just where he was coming from; so exactly as you say (or my own perspective's approximation.) However I'd say personally that him essentially trashing the fact that different secret societies are part of the belief system of the subscribers to the degenerate NWO ethic could be quite an in-depth topic of discussion... Whether or not you want to call that "underlying" or not is kind of a moot point imo.

Dan Brown is a coffee-shop writer, he doesn't write well-researched literature at best and at worst writes disinfo. I enjoyed the 2 books I read purely in a pulp fiction context, knowing they weren't gonna be anything more than that. We're hardly talking Ayn Rand status here as far as authors go are we? I suggest we stop arguing when we agree with each other (for the most part)

Anyway what do you both think of the push for global governance?

@Hairbear, Jordan Maxwell's definitely done some very interesting work though for sure if you want to delve into the occult minds/workings of the elite. I guess maybe this would be an appropriate place to post some stuff along these lines?

there's a women's chapter

There are no women in the Masons, unless they've gone all "equal rights" in the past five years, which seems unlike them. Also, as for 33 degrees, they're into sacred architecture, and how many degrees in a circle? Meh, maybe I've said too much, but I've said enough. Something about pie...

Lettuce, I'd like to hear more about this women's chapter if you could tell us? I know there's a women's counterpart to the Bohemian Grove (Belizian Grove - whether or not this is a PC publicity stunt or not is another matter...) I have to say I have my doubts about it too mind you.

Tell us more about pie Naz!

My man, I was never insulting his accuracy in the first place, nor the underlying message in his books. I don't know enough about freemasonry, theology, or history to make any such claims. I simply know how a good story is written and how proper conflict is developed, and that he doesn't do so. He could write the most accurate biography ever, and it would still make an uninteresting read if one didn't have a previous interest in the biography subject themselves.

I also make no assumption of his abilities.

But I didn't think you were talking about me in the first place. Unless I misinterpreted, you were talking about the average Dan Brown critic.

By the way, this is not an argument, and could turn into a great discussion about literary tactics and conflict/character development.

Okay, we'll move on.

Ayn Rand sucked as an author

Okay, we'll move on.

Ayn Rand sucked as an author

lol now you just hatin' billy

Philip K. Dick was a shit author.

What makes him shit? Many people consider his books to be classics of their genre.

I'm fucking around. I like Philip K. Dick.

He could stand to diversify the characters he uses, but that's personal opinion, not literary criticism.

I haven't read any of his books yet though I keep meaning to... Blade Runner's one of my favourite movies of all time though and A Scanner Darkly is a great adaptation too imo, give or take a few Keanu Reeves acting issues of course

Flow My Tears, The Policeman Said is one of my favorites.

Try to avoid some of his early compositions, like "The Cosmic Puppets". They're before he develops as an author (Which really just means go crazy and get depressed), and pretty dull.

Flow My Tears, The Policeman Said is one of my favorites.

.... They're before he develops as an author (Which really just means go crazy and get depressed), and pretty dull.

There is a lot to be said for a constant diet of amphetamines.

The man who japed is a good early work

Flow My Tears is one of my favourites too, along with The Three Stigmata..., Dr Bloodmoney, High Castle and Ubik.

Ayn Rand really did suck as an author though.

The man who japed is a good early work

It's alright. A nice light read, but if you want "future morally and civilly opressive big brother", there's better books. Bloodmoney was great, as was Deus Irae (Which he wrote with Zelazny).

'... japed' is interesting as it is the first to really hint at some of his later themes IMO.

Deus Irae is great. I like Zelazny a lot - the Amber books are splendid stuff.
Did you know that Zelazny's cat pissed over the completed manuscript of 'Deus...' and they submitted it anyway.

Hahaha, I think I read about that. They tried to send the publisher photocopies and he wanted the original.

I haven't read the Amber series, just Changeling and Doorways In The Sand. His use of mythology is awesome, though.

I agree with you about Dan Brown's inaccuracies delegitimising the debate on freemasonry to an extent, and I can imagine the MSM conversations on tv as we speak using that exact same vernacular ("that dan brown fiction.")

Nice bit of doublethink mental gymnastics if you take into account the stuff I posted about it being a positive recruiting tool for people to consider joining them if you consider this:

I have to disagree that they're a benevolent organisation considering the high-up membership list of elites who're also CFR/Trilat. Commission/Royal Institute For International Affairs/Bilderberg Group, and the luciferian/kabbalistic rituals that take place in lodges within the upper degrees (from my research there are several more degrees than the 33rd but no one knows for sure how many more, taking numerology into account of course...) such as those described by Manly P. Hall and Albert Pike (founder of the original KKK which I'm sure you knew as well as the geomantic architecture that can be found in cities throughout the world. The influence of the babylon mystery schools and by application, freemasonry, imo shouldn't be sniffed at. Though I agree again that there needs to be a focus on exposing global government and the fraudulent banking system as well as those previously mentioned institutions that're geared towards such things.

Everyone has their own belief system (even nothing is still something lol) and I think it's important to understand the religion of the "eugenic elite" personally.

Maybe the masons in the UK are different than the ones in Canada. I have no doubt that there are high degree masons here, I've just never met anyone who has ever met one. I know many masons through family and work. All masons that I have met have been nothing other than good natured folks looking to do some good in their spare time.
See, you're losing me when you go off on a David Icke (sp?), Alex Jones thing. I believe in all sorts of weird and wonderful things but I draw the line at Lizard People and Ritualistic Human Sacrifice in the Bohemian Grove. I really don't believe that BG could have been covered up for so long with only 1 grainy Alex Jones video as evidence. It's possible I guess but I have the same attitiude towards that as I do god. It's a great story but until I'm there an can touch feel smell and maybe taste it, it's not real.
When dealing with what is referred to as conspiracy theories (or conspiracy facts by some), I feel too much credit has been given to the conspirators. Clearly, the US gov't bungled the staged 911 attacks. These would be some of the same people that supposedly partake in the activities in the grove. Can someone that fucked up the 911 coverup so immensely be involved in other "shadow gov't" activities? Could they possibly keep that secret?
OR... could things like the masons, bohemian grove, etc. etc. simply be an inside joke at this point? Could the mythology be perpetuated in order to focus on things like illegal wars, torture, murdering innocent civilians, selling arms to Israel, peak oil, etc. etc. etc.

What is the most common trick amongst amateur magicians?

SLEIGHT OF HAND