What I'm trying to say is where does the responsibility lie? Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but it seems to me that abortion is too easy to use as a method of absolving yourself of any responsiblity. Again, this is simply my opinion and I'm not trying to tell others how to live.

Just curious have you ever had an abortion? Do you have any idea what its like? The reason I ask this is because I really dont believe it "absolves oneself from any responisbility" . I doubt its like taking out the trash. or getting a hair cut, but thats just a guess.


and to the other posts about do the males / or should the males have a say?

Well, I would like to think I would but in all honesty NO. We dont have to take it through pregnancy and birth it. Lets face it: with this aspect in mind we have a very small say , if any.

the problem as well is that there are SO many posibilities to getting pregnant. Condom Breaking, pill not working, etc etc. sometimes bad luck happens to people whop are actually responsible, believe it or not. what then?

All I ask in responses is the posters' thoughts , not the posters' doctrine.

I said I was going to keep a close eye on the thread. That's hardly a slap on the wrist. If people can stay civil, then there's no problem. Right?

You made me cry.

What??? How can you cry with such a great avatar? Not possible I say.

You moderators are getting seriously off topic here

First, let me say that I never used the word punishment. That was your interpretation of my statements. I never feel a child is or should ever be "used as punishment". That's horrible and should never be a consideration.

Second, I didn't change my mind at all. The first statement was a hypothetical situation to simply show that a broad ruling can't possibly apply to all cases. I was trying to show the different questions someone might ask in the given situation, not necessarily how I regard the situation personally. Regarding the second statement, you twisted my words a bit. I didn't say the female would have to "pay for her promiscuity with abortion". I said if she doesn't want to face the possibility of having to choose between giving birth or abortion, don't have consentual sex.

What I'm trying to say is where does the responsibility lie? Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but it seems to me that abortion is too easy to use as a method of absolving yourself of any responsiblity. Again, this is simply my opinion and I'm not trying to tell others how to live.

I'm not trying to dish out punishment of any kind. I want that to be perfectly clear. I am glad that all of us are able to discuss this here in a civilized manner. Well, I was supposed to be somewhere else about an hour ago, so I should really get going. I hope this discussion remains civil. It's interesting to read others' views on this topic.

About the first post, the 'different questions someone might ask': this is exactly the problem! Who has the right to ask questions that turn out to be an obligation for the girl? Why should those questions matter? Ok, many people disagree, but hey, they don't have anything to do with the girl or the baby. They just want to impose their will. But no one has the right to interfere, no one! So the only right thing to do is to protect the girl FROM SUCH QUESTIONS, and that is by a general rule. And the general rule should be: no one but the girl has a say.

About the second post: what you wrote in defence ("if she doesn't want to face the possibility of having to choose between giving birth or abortion, don't have consentual sex") is common sense. The problem arises precisely when it's too late. That's what we are talking about, when it's to late, when the girl HAS to make the decision. "I'm pregnant. Do I give birth or do I abort?" And my point is that the girl MUST BE ABLE to make that decision for herself, that both options - birth and abortion - must be on the table ALL THE TIME. And this is only possible with a general, universal rule, not particular subjective ones.

Please tell me where you disagree about that, why the general rule is not an option for you. I don't understand why someone's subjective questionings should have any weight at all in this matter. Peace.

And with all due respect, my fellow human, but you really should reconsider that "abortion is too easy to use as a method of absolving yourself of any responsiblity" opinion of yours. Really man, abortion is digusting, it is by no means easy, that is a fact and you base your opinion on ignoring this fact. And there is no measure to tell which act is more irresponsible: aborting or keeping the baby. Keeping the child can be as irresponsible as aborting it. Consider this: if you change your opinion, it is still your opinion, isn't it?

First, let me say that I never used the word punishment. That was your interpretation of my statements. I never feel a child is or should ever be "used as punishment". That's horrible and should never be a consideration.

Second, I didn't change my mind at all. The first statement was a hypothetical situation to simply show that a broad ruling can't possibly apply to all cases. I was trying to show the different questions someone might ask in the given situation, not necessarily how I regard the situation personally. Regarding the second statement, you twisted my words a bit. I didn't say the female would have to "pay for her promiscuity with abortion". I said if she doesn't want to face the possibility of having to choose between giving birth or abortion, don't have consentual sex.

What I'm trying to say is where does the responsibility lie? Maybe I'm too old fashioned, but it seems to me that abortion is too easy to use as a method of absolving yourself of any responsiblity. Again, this is simply my opinion and I'm not trying to tell others how to live.

I'm not trying to dish out punishment of any kind. I want that to be perfectly clear. I am glad that all of us are able to discuss this here in a civilized manner. Well, I was supposed to be somewhere else about an hour ago, so I should really get going. I hope this discussion remains civil. It's interesting to read others' views on this topic.

About the first post, the 'different questions someone might ask': this is exactly the problem! Who has the right to ask questions that turn out to be an obligation for the girl? Why should those questions matter? Ok, many people disagree, but hey, they don't have anything to do with the girl or the baby. They just want to impose their will. But no one has the right to interfere, no one! So the only right thing to do is to protect the girl FROM SUCH QUESTIONS, and that is by a general rule. And the general rule should be: no one but the girl has a say.

About the second post: what you wrote in defence ("if she doesn't want to face the possibility of having to choose between giving birth or abortion, don't have consentual sex") is common sense. The problem arises precisely when it's too late. That's what we are talking about, when it's to late, when the girl HAS to make the decision. "I'm pregnant. Do I give birth or do I abort?" And my point is that the girl MUST BE ABLE to make that decision for herself, that both options - birth and abortion - must be on the table ALL THE TIME. And this is only possible with a general, universal rule, not particular subjective ones.

Please tell me where you disagree about that, why the general rule is not an option for you. I don't understand why someone's subjective questionings should have any weight at all in this matter. Peace.

And with all due respect, my fellow human, but you really should reconsider that "abortion is too easy to use as a method of absolving yourself of any responsiblity" opinion of yours. Really man, abortion is digusting, it is by no means easy, that is a fact and you base your opinion on ignoring this fact. And there is no measure to tell which act is more irresponsible: aborting or keeping the baby. Keeping the child can be as irresponsible as aborting it. Consider this: if you change your opinion, it is still your opinion, isn't it?

Ah, but it's only too late if she has sex in the first place. There is no decision to face if she never had sex to begin with.

And let's say a couple has unprotected sex, knowing full well that a child may be conceived. Are you saying that the potential father has no say whether or not he wants a child to be born as a result of this? It takes two people to make the child, so why should he not have equal say in the matter? Because she's the one who has to carry the fetus inside her until birth?

What I'm saying is that once TWO people engage in sex, the responsibility should lie EQUALLY between the two to decide what happens. But, this is just one man's opinion and it's certainly not going to sway any major vote on the issue.

This has been very interesting. It's nice to know there are more thoughtful, intelligent people out there than I first believed.

Ah, but it's only too late if she has sex in the first place. There is no decision to face if she never had sex to begin with.

And let's say a couple has unprotected sex, knowing full well that a child may be conceived. Are you saying that the potential father has no say whether or not he wants a child to be born as a result of this? It takes two people to make the child, so why should he not have equal say in the matter? Because she's the one who has to carry the fetus inside her until birth?

What I'm saying is that once TWO people engage in sex, the responsibility should lie EQUALLY between the two to decide what happens. But, this is just one man's opinion and it's certainly not going to sway any major vote on the issue.

This has been very interesting. It's nice to know there are more thoughtful, intelligent people out there than I first believed.

I absolutely agree in theory, but there is the fact that in this situation, they aimply are not equal, and whether I think the father should have a say or not is irrelevant, because ultimately, it's the mother's body who will go through the pregnancy, or the abortion procedure (which i don't know much about, but from what I do no certinaly isn't easy physically, never mind the emotional/mental issues surrounding the decision...anyway, I digress) For that reason, the decision will unfortunately never be equal.

And let's say a couple has unprotected sex, knowing full well that a child may be conceived. Are you saying that the potential father has no say whether or not he wants a child to be born as a result of this? It takes two people to make the child, so why should he not have equal say in the matter? Because she's the one who has to carry the fetus inside her until birth?

Pretty much. Its not the same to dump a load as it is to carry it. Yes, its a joke but at the same time fairly serious.
My rights as a male in childbirth will never be equal to the woman. She has to carry the load. Her decision. Pehaps there will come a time I dont like it, but its something I have to live with and deal with
Accept it.
... WEAR A HELMET!

lol, exactly.

While I can't say I like the idea of abortion in many ways, I can't ignore that it has empowered women. In the past, there was such a lack of equality in terms of men having the option to just walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, the legalisation of abortion certainly did a lot for the development of women (and I'm not a raging feminist, they scare the bejeezus out of me!)

i would like to think i have some say in whether or not a child of mine gets born, but, its not my body that gets all fucked up (and during the birth it really does) and i just wouldn't have as much immediate responsibility. it is too easy for a father to jump in and out of contact to give them a definitive say in the future of this "poor" girls life

Ah, but it's only too late if she has sex in the first place. There is no decision to face if she never had sex to begin with.

Again, this is common sense, but this common sense is ignoring the current situation, the problem at hand (being pregnant). If a girl is pregnant and you say "You shouldn't have sex in the first place," this is guilt tripping! What good does that do? It's just accusing the girl of irresponsibility while avoiding her "here and now" problem. My point is if your say avoids dealing with the current problem, than your say doesn't have any weight. It's simply missing the problem. The problem isn't the act of sex that led to the pregnancy, the problem is the pregnancy itself. If she doesn't want to have the baby, that ONLY means that SOMETHING went wrong, and was that on her behalf or someone or something else's, should really be irrelevant. No guy should be able to force a woman to give birth to his or other's child, no matter what her reasons for abortion are. Can you name one situation where his enforcement can be justified? I can't find a single one.

lol, exactly.

While I can't say I like the idea of abortion in many ways, I can't ignore that it has empowered women. In the past, there was such a lack of equality in terms of men having the option to just walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, the legalisation of abortion certainly did a lot for the development of women (and I'm not a raging feminist, they scare the bejeezus out of me!)

I have no problem with women controling their own lives/ bodies. now the man-hating women are a completely different subject.

lol, exactly.

While I can't say I like the idea of abortion in many ways, I can't ignore that it has empowered women. In the past, there was such a lack of equality in terms of men having the option to just walk away from an unwanted pregnancy, the legalisation of abortion certainly did a lot for the development of women (and I'm not a raging feminist, they scare the bejeezus out of me!)

I have no problem with women controling their own lives/ bodies. now the man-hating women are a completely different subject.

Indeed...I find those types an insult to women!

Ah, but it's only too late if she has sex in the first place. There is no decision to face if she never had sex to begin with.

Again, this is common sense, but this common sense is ignoring the current situation, the problem at hand (being pregnant). If a girl is pregnant and you say "You shouldn't have sex in the first place," this is guilt tripping! What good does that do? It's just accusing the girl of irresponsibility while avoiding her "here and now" problem. My point is if your say avoids dealing with the current problem, than your say doesn't have any weight. It's simply missing the problem. The problem isn't the act of sex that led to the pregnancy, the problem is the pregnancy itself. If she doesn't want to have the baby, that ONLY means that SOMETHING went wrong, and was that on her behalf or someone or something else's, should really be irrelevant. No guy should be able to force a woman to give birth to his or other's child, no matter what her reasons for abortion are. Can you name one situation where his enforcement can be justified? I can't find a single one.

This is my justification for abortion, I don't tally with any 'is it a human?' 'is it murder' questions. I just don't think anything has the right to leech off anyone's body if they don't want it to.

There is a line of feminist thought that abortion isn't liberating to women, if a women were truly free to control her own body and sexuality, she would never end up pregnant against her will. Of course we've yet to find an uber form of contraception that would allow such circumstances (non-permanently).

Back to the situation at hand, this is basically an opportunity for all other red states to now go and pass similar laws, create legal contentions to send this all the way up to the supreme court and try to overthrow Roe vs Wade.