Yep.

I actually feel that Satanism boasts far greater moral values than Christianity or any other religion for that matter.

Then again, we're really only talking about LaVey's Satanism here. Like anything else it's all open to interpretation. I'm sure there are Satanists out there who have never read the Satanic Bible.

Now this talk is about definition of "satanism", blah balh blah blah.

how it corralates with humanism, boring. I think we all more all less agree on these?

I would like to focus on the ideas of history and "how to be tr00 anti christian", what this vikernes bs is all about. I am not probably the only one bored with the "satanism" brand as a I still believe it is just form of rebellion for kids.

Just to thank him who said it first:


"Personal belief = ok
organised religion = bad"

Was it Zeus? cant remember.

I would conclude that the statement can be derived to:

politics, token lifestyles, choise of media, religion, they all are just mind control in the end, and people buy in to that bullshit to make emselves feel "better" or "part of something" etc

is it all this muddled on purpose?

But still: entertaining. I also agree 70% what he says and rest makes me disappointed about how come some one that smart can be also so stupid.

Could not agree with you more.

It's pretty obvious that satanism was "invented" by church. Any native religion could have easilly been called (And I'm sure the were) satanism among christians. '
Religion is one weird and stupid thing and it keeps surprising me all the time. If I would say I believed (I'm I'd worship them) in Zeus, Jupiter, Thor or Santa Claus, people would automatically say that "they are only fairytails." Think about that for a minute.
Christianity is brainwahing from beginning to the very end. In schools, 7 to 12 year old kids are basically being forced to study religion. That is not healthy. I found it very irritating when I thought about myself being an atheist and it felt like a "wrong" or "bad" thing. It's subconcious. Think about the number of nominal christians in world. Why do they still belong to church?

OK. Now everyone who has something to say (like insulting me or something) about those things above, put one good thing religion has caused to youre post.

[djskrimp]

Anything that makes you feel good about yourself and your surroundings is good.
Anything that makes you responsible for what you do is good.
Anything that asks you to make where you are better than how you found it is good.
Anything that asks that you help those in need, be it person, animal, whatever, is good.
Anything that asks you to use violence only as a last resort or in self defense of yourself or others is good.
Anything that tells you that you are human and make mistakes and to try to learn from those mistakes instead of feeling bad about yourself is good.
Anything that asks that you not judge others is good.
Anything that asks you to hear all sides before making assumptions is good.
That is my "religion". I don't need a church, and I don't pray to anyone, because if there is a higher power than me, that entity doesn't need me to tell it that it is powerful, and when I die, it can judge my life based on what I did. From the people that I have met in my life, there have been some Satanists who live this way, too. Can't say thay they were bad people. What I am saying is this: If we could learn to look beyond the "religion", and get to know people for who they are and from their actions, it sure would be a little easier in the long run, I think.

Hell, just look at my signature...

I can not believe this thread is still alive.

Now to Goebblesey idea:

"Either you must be christian conservative or the terrorists will win."

A Couple of points i have to make
Satan is basically invention of the church, well at least image of him that we know today. So why would people worship somthing that has been made up by christianity if you dont beleive in christianity? Because the christians started labelling various groups as satan worshipping for their own means.

Therefore the burnings that went on in the middle ages, were probably pagans and other old traditional religions. Then again maybe there were just idiots that decided to worship this devil guy the christians had been telling them about.... I find this harder to believe though.

A Couple of points i have to make
Satan is basically invention of the church, well at least image of him that we know today. So why would people worship somthing that has been made up by christianity if you dont beleive in christianity? Because the christians started labelling various groups as satan worshipping for their own means.

Arguable. I say, God is an invention of the same people.

I would also point out that as in all "wars", the history is written by the winners, and I really do not believe in "dark ages in primitive EUROPE" before widespread christianisation.

The Roman Empire became christian under Emperor Konstantin very late, around 313. So the influences of roman culture, not christianity, shaped the european continent for centuries way before the life of a certain Jesus from Nazareth.

Why should I not believe that the greek and roman culture was a more progressive and more complex culture and society than the one of the Celts or the germanic tribes (not to be confused with "surperior")? Of course, many elements of those ancient societies were merged into the roman culture, but the roman imprintings on the continent represented a cultural quantum leap. See what happened on the continent after the breakdown of the Roman Empire...

I believe in falsifiable science and until it is proven wrong, I believe in important cultural impulses initiated by the Romans - and as far as I know this is undisputed, scientifically. Comparable to this, everybody knows that the orient or the early chinese dynasties once were culturally more advanced than the occident. Why should I negate such a fact?

Well, is this "fact" a fact you may ask. Well, you can't relativize everything. There are people out there that even relativize the holocaust of the jews...

From ancient Greece to the Roman Empire, to the spread of christianity, to the renaissance, to the enlightenment and french revolution to me being able to reflect on all of this and being an agnostic, I see a path dependency and I don't need a nihilistic muderer and neo-fascict like Varg Vikernes to explain to me how history works.

Wasn't literature originated in Persia = Iraq?

Well, Mesopotamia (today's Iraq) was the living space of one of the first ''high'' cultures, the one of the Sumerians (about 3.500 - 2.000 b.c.). But today's Iran is the equivalent of ancient Persia, not Iraq. Unlike Iran, Iraq is an arabic nation.

Live your life, enjoy it and don't waste it living by anyone else's moral rules.

That doesn't sound too humanistic. Even life in an ant colony has certain rules, be it domesticated or genetically encoded. I don't think our human species could live without a certain set of rules or any "ethics" (OK, it won't be a long-lasting species anyway in the temporal scale of a geological era, but that's a different story).

Immanual Kant's "Categorial Imperative" should be humanities basic set of rules:

1. "Act only according to that maxim by which you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

2. "Act as though the maxim of your action were by your will to become a universal law of nature."

3. Act so that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in that of another, always as an end and never as a means only."

I wish someone could find another source for this pre-christian (or anti-christian:) pagan history, I do not wish to rely too much on information from a neo-nazi.

Also in addition to the pagan rituals being practised now in chritianised label, I would also point out that as in all "wars", the history is written by the winners, and I really do not believe in "dark ages in primitive EUROPE" before widespread christianisation. I actually do not believe any culture was vile and primitive until touched by politics and organised religion or other manipulation of masses to serve some one with a power trip.

Kinda late but as far as I know The Dark Ages ARE the era of widespread Christianisation! Christianity - as far as Europe is concerned - equals The Dark, ok? Of course the current right wing Christian Europe doesn't admit that (the whole preambula to the constitution thing), but that's what history says. Then it was the Renaissance and Enlightenment and science, and church was full-on against any of that. If it were the church's way, we'd be still living in caves. Motherfuckers! I hate church.

Anything that makes you feel good about yourself and your surroundings is good.
Anything that makes you responsible for what you do is good.
Anything that asks you to make where you are better than how you found it is good.
Anything that asks that you help those in need, be it person, animal, whatever, is good.
Anything that asks you to use violence only as a last resort or in self defense of yourself or others is good.
Anything that tells you that you are human and make mistakes and to try to learn from those mistakes instead of feeling bad about yourself is good.
Anything that asks that you not judge others is good.
Anything that asks you to hear all sides before making assumptions is good.
That is my "religion". I don't need a church, and I don't pray to anyone, because if there is a higher power than me, that entity doesn't need me to tell it that it is powerful, and when I die, it can judge my life based on what I did. From the people that I have met in my life, there have been some Satanists who live this way, too. Can't say thay they were bad people. What I am saying is this: If we could learn to look beyond the "religion", and get to know people for who they are and from their actions, it sure would be a little easier in the long run, I think.

Hell, just look at my signature...

Congratulations! You have just proved that I am an idiot. I got a bit carried away there.
By the way I really liked that "I don't need a church" part.[/b]

[djskrimp]

Anything that makes you feel good about yourself and your surroundings is good.
Anything that makes you responsible for what you do is good.
Anything that asks you to make where you are better than how you found it is good.
Anything that asks that you help those in need, be it person, animal, whatever, is good.
Anything that asks you to use violence only as a last resort or in self defense of yourself or others is good.
Anything that tells you that you are human and make mistakes and to try to learn from those mistakes instead of feeling bad about yourself is good.
Anything that asks that you not judge others is good.
Anything that asks you to hear all sides before making assumptions is good.
That is my "religion". I don't need a church, and I don't pray to anyone, because if there is a higher power than me, that entity doesn't need me to tell it that it is powerful, and when I die, it can judge my life based on what I did. From the people that I have met in my life, there have been some Satanists who live this way, too. Can't say thay they were bad people. What I am saying is this: If we could learn to look beyond the "religion", and get to know people for who they are and from their actions, it sure would be a little easier in the long run, I think.

Hell, just look at my signature...

Congratulations! You have just proved that I am an idiot. I got a bit carried away there.
By the way I really liked that "I don't need a church" part.[/b]

See, that's my point...you are not an idiot. You think the way you do because of who you are and partly by the life you've lived. Just as I think the way I do because of the life I've lived and my assesment of things as I 've experienced them.

Well religion might do good to many but I've always felt that church is just stealing away their moneys.
And the brainwashing is totally wrong. Nothing can make me change my mind.